What is your favourite law of physics?
Michael: It’s a good one. Yep. If we talk about physics, I was always focusing … First of all, you will like physics when you start learning, the mechanics and Newton laws. Yeah, but then when you go farther and farther, you see that even these Newton laws that you studied in school are a bit different and not always true, so you need to look in them deeper. And for me, I would say electricity and magnetism and what was done by Maxwell is a much cooler thing to think about just because it’s, again, everything we have today.
Michael: Because with Newton, we had the beginning of the past for all our civilisation. But with Maxwell, we make a jump. Yeah, but it was a huge jump. Without Maxwell, there was not possible Einstein or his theory, and so forth. So yep, the Maxwell equation is the best one that I learned in the university.
Michael: So yeah, I would say electricity and magnetism, and having everything, and probably dualism as well just because it’s a matter of, think of the universe. You cannot think of the universe as a wave or as a material object, but it’s always both. And yep, it’s something that you need to change your vision to everything, to everything that happens.
With your deep understanding of physics, do you apply that to your work, your life today?
Michael: I would like to do it. Unfortunately, no. As for today, no, just because it’s like academic knowledge, and one of the things you have to learn when doing physics, it’s programming and software engineering. And this is something that I saw a bigger impact on the future, not in my life only, but in several industries where you cannot just use it as a tool, but create something different, something that can be delivered faster.
Michael: In physics, I would say to deliver any product, you need to spend years, years and years and years. In software development, you can do it in a month, and deliver and test, and it’s much faster. I’m a person who likes to do and to iterate and see results. In physics, unfortunately, it takes several years to see a result because you need to make a test and you need to do several publications.
Michael: Then you need to go to the conference to speak with a physicist in the same area. And then maybe you can do some statement. The statement probably can be true, but it’s about 10 years past from your first experiment, and you got the first reasonable results. I am more like a practitioner. I like when something, not just … I’m not a theoretical physicist just because I have lots of friends in this area and I like them, but it’s a different kind of people, I would say. They live in a different area.
Heather: You don’t let your physics friends mix with your software engineering friends.
Michael: Yeah. No, sometimes they like software engineering as well, and they can move there, to this area. Because when they have the same patience that I do, to see the results, not just have them in their minds, but see them somewhere … And yeah, I am more a practitioner, and that’s why I choose to go from physics, where you need to wait long, and you don’t know how it can be even used in real life, between theory and between real use of your theory can be not even 10 years. But yeah, it’s always a very long wait. So yeah, I moved to software engineering when you can see the results much faster.
Michael: You can see how your patience can be used for other people, for other projects. But again, physics is something that … It’s changing our lives in any case. We can see how revolutionary … I mean, iPhones and all the smartphones, I mean just the portable phone. Something similar to the iPhone was created even in the ’90s, but it was not able to be used because the technology was not there. It was not able to produce so many iPhones. So yeah, it’s not just a theory, but also having the right technology in place to scale it, like electric cars as well.
Michael: Yep, yep. We can think about, why can’t we do it before? Just because we didn’t use so much lithium batteries before. And then we have all our devices, and we start to do it a lot, and okay, let’s have electric cars. Why not? Why not take the same battery from the iPhone and put them on the electric battery? Of course, it’s not so simple. But in a sense, it’s this. It’s all about, this technology that should be in place. And right now we see that software and programming are in place, and it can help many, many businesses and use cases, you have to go, to change.
Heather: Absolutely. Absolutely. My mother was actually my physics teacher at school, and she won the Queensland Physics Teacher of the State award. So you’ve given me something to talk about in our weekly conversation when I catch her with her next. I’ll get her to explain Maxwell’s law to me. That will sort her out, won’t it?
Michael: Yeah, but the Maxwell equation.
Heather: Maxwell equation.
Heather: She’ll be testing me on it by the end of the conversation.
Michael: Yeah, it’s a big one. It’s one of the biggest ones, but it’s very-
Heather: Maybe I’ll tape the conversation in parts. Maybe I’ll start it and have it over a few months, but thank you for sharing that, Michael. It’s always interesting to see the diversity of the intersections in what we’re doing and other interests that we share. So moving on, you have done a degree in physics.
Can you share with our listeners a bit about your background leading up before you joined the company you’re with at the moment?
Michael: Yep, sure. Yep. Right after my degree, I switched to programming, yeah, to software engineering, and was working as a software engineer in several companies. At some point, I decided to start my own service company, and I was able to do some software development for different companies, different needs. Most of them were startups in the UK, in the EU. A few of them were from the United States. I held like a CTRO in several startups, helping them to build infrastructure, to build architecture for their new ideas. It was different areas, entertainment. It was location-based services, I mean, when there was no … Google Places just started, and we had something in parallel also.
Michael: Yep. Also, there were a few clients where we helped with the accounting domain and bookkeeping. And then we saw the huge market, where you can create products and deliver them, and huge ecosystems around Xero and around QuickBooks so that you can start doing something without having a huge marketing budget. You can start, create something, put it to the marketplace, and see whether people need it, whether you correct in your assumptions so that someone can use it and give you feedback or something.
Michael: Because this is the biggest problem right now in software development because there are a huge amount of very clever people who can deliver high-technology solutions. And it’s hundreds and hundreds of products available online, but no one knows about this, no one. And sometimes these products do not solve any immediate problem of anyone, just like, okay, but what for?
Michael: It’s like blockchain. When we had this blockchain euphoria, the assumption was, everyone will use blockchain for accounting because it’s logical. And none, no one uses this still. So yeah, for me, it was like an evolutionary process from doing software to start creating products for accountants, for bookkeepers, for small businesses. So yeah.
Heather: It’s interesting how you … I think what you’re saying is that by accessing the ecosystem that sits around the two online accounting solutions Intuit, QuickBooks, and Xero, you actually can leverage your marketing by doing that and get at least some recognition through that. And saying that-
Michael: Yep, it’s so-called CustDev, customer development, when you need to understand the need of your product. And in most scenarios, usually, it’s like you need to find some way for your clients, ask them to use this, but when you have a marketplace, you can just put them out and see where that will be. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah, absolutely. But in some ways, as an end-user of Xero or QuickBooks, I’m wary of plugging my data or connecting it with anything unless it has actually been verified and security-checked by the team who are at QuickBooks and Xero because they do that, I’m not a technical person here, the authentication. They ensure that there’s the utmost security in those connections there.
Michael: Yep. Yep, yep, exactly.
Heather: So it’s two things. It’s, one, we can find you there, but two, you’re pre-qualified because of that. I know that I’m going to be safe, and I know that if there’s an … I’ve never heard of an issue there, but I know I could go back to either team because, while they’re competitors, they actually work very closely on that respect, the security respect, which is great that at least we’ve got some teams working together.
Michael: No, no, you’re absolutely right about this just because it’s a huge … I mean in the current world, it’s so much important so that you can trust. You can have, I mean, several applications with the same functionality. But here in marketplaces, we have every year of past from both QuickBooks, Intuit, and Xero, security check. They have some separate company to do the security check for our applications and to … I mean, it’s a huge access to the trust. And you cannot gain it in any other way. I mean, you can put on your site FAQ saying, “Yeah, you do something.” But no, it’s not working. It’s like …
Heather: Yeah, yeah. Trust is really hard to get and very quick to lose.
Michael: Yep, sure. Yeah.
Can you share a bit of what that journey of joining Synder and what Synder is?
Michael: Before Synder, there is a umbrella company, CloudBusiness, that have several products available, and Synder was not the first one. And initially, we have created a product that help with Excel importing into QuickBooks, Xero, MYOB, Sage, all this kind of accounting softwares. And also, we were in subscription model there. We were using both … To get paid, we were using PayPal and Stripe.
Michael: And then it was like my own problem to get all this data into accounting platform, I’m using QuickBooks Online, and to get it in right category, to have it for … because it’s a different subscriptions. I want to have a product. I don’t have many products. I have my product and my subscription. But I want to know what is better and to whom. And I could not find anything in QuickBooks Online marketplace at that time so that it can easily do it for both PayPal and Stripe and put it in one ecosystem.
Michael: And yep, at that moment, I mean, who else has this problem? Let’s see. And we saw there were several forum topics on this, about same problem. PayPal, Stripe, both QuickBooks, Xero, you need to do it manually. You need to go to Excel, export Excel, and then, I mean, with our existing products, for example, we had to do it through Excel. But it’s a complex task. I mean, it’s a bookkeeping task. I don’t know how to appropriately categorise what’s an expense, what should not be there. I mean, I’m a business owner, not an accountant.
Michael: And yeah, it was just an idea of how many people have this problem as well? And let’s create a product. Let’s try to put it on the marketplace again, also, and see what will be the impact. And yeah, once we’ve done this, we saw … not from the beginning. I would be honest because from the beginning it was … because we did not know what we were doing as well. It’s like what’s … Right.
Heather: It sounds like almost, you saw something in the marketplace, and then you experimented and tried in the testing something out, which is … Everyone does it. Everyone’s got to do that.
Michael: It was like a minimum viable product. Let’s create something and test how it’s working, how people behave with it because every business have its own circumstances, its own use cases. It’s like every business is different even in the same area. I mean, most of accountants and bookkeepers know this, and that’s why I know it will be never replaced by any robot just because too different. They’re too different.
Michael: Okay. Yep, once we started doing this, we saw the impact, and we saw that people need it, not just for PayPal and Stripe, for many more other payment platforms as well, payment providers. And they want to have different settings, like configurations when I want to specify this account for that and this account for this, and I want to have some additional rules and customisations for my specific needs just because I am the one who’s selling from Canada company to the United States as well, and I have some rules. I am in Australia as well, and here we have a bit different tax rules, not same as in the United States. You need to mention this. You need to make a proper solution that work with this market as well.
Michael: Today, for example, we see that it’s a lot of international sales happening. It’s not important where your home office is. You can sell to any other country just because it’s … All big vendors, like Amazon, eBay, they’re trying to simplify delivery. This is the biggest … And Shopify as well. You can deliver any point in the world today. It’s not a problem.
Michael: So yeah. It was, also, just before we were thinking about this, one of the products that we have. But now we see that, not just one of the products, it’s a full-featured product that can be used for e-commerces mainly. But we can talk about this a bit later, who is a niche.
Where does the name Synder come from?
Michael: It’s a fun story, to be honest.
Heather: Fun story. Okay. We can take a fun story.
Michael: Yeah. We changed the name in 2020, yeah, at the beginning of 2020. Before this, it was like Business Payments, and it was too wide, too wide, yeah.
Heather: And that’s really hard for a CEO. Business Payments is like-
Michael: Yeah, it’s really … Of course, yep, yep, exactly, exactly, exactly. Once we understood it, this is a product we want to go with, the only one. Nothing more is important here. This is the biggest product that we want to go with.
Michael: What’s today, for today? What is it doing? It’s synchronised data. Okay, synchronised. Okay. How does it look like? I mean, what’s the point for the business? What’s our gaining for the business? It was initially the idea of my co-founder, Ilya. He said, “Imagine you are Cinderella, and you are an accountant as Cinderella, and you have only a few hours on the bell. You need to hurry up. You need to do all your things to become a princess, to stay a princess, to do all your things.
Michael: It’s a time-consuming task. I mean, you don’t have a lot of time to finish it. So let’s imagine that we give to accounting and bookkeeping a Cinderella, who should not become, again … I mean, she has a very limited amount of time to-
Heather: Get to the ball.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, the ball. And it’s like-
Heather: Well, that took a completely different direction that I didn’t anticipate.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, again, it’s different just because it was like, “Okay, Cinderella. Will I become Cinderella?” But no. I will not tell the story. It’s too hard to understand. Let’s not put it on the plate. But we liked name. Cinderella is something very close to Synder. Yep, let’s just make shorter. Let’s make it Synder. Why not?
Michael: It’s a common word.
Heather: And it is a nickname for her, isn’t it, Cinders?
Michael: Yep, yep.
Heather: In the story, people do actually do refer to her as Cinders, occasionally. Oh, that’s a brilliant name. Okay? I’m very impressed with that. Once people have that, they will never forget it.
Michael: Yeah. I mean, I don’t think right now it’s a … There is a right correlation between Cinderella and Synder, but this is how it was created. Yeah.
Who is the ideal client for Synder?
Michael: For today, the ideal client for Synder is an accountant or bookkeeper who has an e-commerce client. This is an ideal client. And e-commerce clients, of course, it’s sold online or it’s through several multi channels and can sell internationally as well. I mean, I’m pointing this to sell in multiple channels, sometimes nationally, just because these is our two most complex scenarios that we know how to handle.
Michael: When we’re selling through Amazon, eBay, and you have to sell it in different countries just because your taxation is different, and it depends on your home currency, it will be different, and to Synder, solves this problem for most of the e-commerces, and of course, many, many more … much more for e-commerces. So yep, this is an ideal client. But also, I mean, e-commerce owners of small shops can find it useful as well.
Heather: It’s hard enough reconciling when you’ve got a large volume, but then reconciling when you’ve got a large volume in multicurrencies, extraordinarily difficult. I know that there’s some of the big solutions, some of the big platform solutions out there actually just don’t deal with multicurrency, which is astonishing, really astonishing. So that’s great that you’ve actually been able to deal with that and build that into your system.
Michael: Yep, yep, yep. I mean, we can work even if … For example, in Xero, in Australia as well, we have clients who sell online in USD in the United States, but home currency is Australian dollars. And in Xero, it’s Australian dollars only. And we are enabling this. We are getting the proper currency conversion. For example, if you’re selling through Shopify, it’s available in Shopify, and it’s reconciled properly.
Michael: So yep, it’s a task with … I mean, we pointed to have it, for sure, to make it properly. It’s our main goal to make reconciliation. I mean, it’s not only about having the right inventory, but it’s also about having right cash flow and your accounts perfectly reconciled.
Heather: Yeah. Look, it’s a massively growing area, that e-commerce, that online area.
What advice do you have for startup companies or companies looking to actually go online? Do you deal with a lot of them with your business?
Michael: Yep. Through pandemic, we have different kinds of scenarios. First of all, we have classic e-commerces who were selling there for a long time, but it was not the way how-
Heather: I didn’t envisage the word classic and e-commerce to go together, but go on. Because we’ve been here so long, so classic e-commerce.
Michael: I would say classic e-commerce, it’s for the businesses who started their business from selling online.
Heather: Oh, okay.
Michael: They never sell … were selling offline. It’s a new business, of course, but from day one, they, for example, created Shopify store or WooCommerce or Amazon, and they started selling there. Done. Yep. And for them, I mean, it’s a clear and easy story. But due to COVID, we had last year lots of clients in cafés, also industry, in restaurants, and professional services who have salons and all the stuff, and we have lots of clients in this area. It was a … because COVID hit them a lot, and we were trying to help them because we were losing clients, they were losing money. We tried to communicate to clients who live in … due to COVID and help them to start doing something online.
Michael: For example, for restaurants and cafés, let’s find a delivery online option for you. For hairdressers, let’s start teaching other people because they cannot do it. You can teach them how to do it. Let’s try to do a Zoom call, and you can get paid online for this. Of course, it’s not the same money you have, but it’s something that help you pass through it.
Michael: And then it will stay here. Any of your online sellers will stay here. And yep, it was the days when we were communicating a lot with our clients to giving them the right tools, not just about … because they were already users of Synder. We were giving them Shopify. We were giving them … We have created functionality to get paid online through the link. So you can have an Instagram account. Put the link there so people can pay you.
Michael: Even if you cannot do any services online, create this link, make it like a donation, pay for it today, but do your hair-dress in a few months. Everyone understands it’s like a donation, but it’s for your business where you want to go. You want to continue to go to the same hairdresser that is a few blocks near your house. You don’t want it’s closed in two months after COVID. So it was a hard way. And what we see is that … Yeah, that’s why this is not classical, but many businesses converted and moved to online.
Heather: So you gave them the option of multiple platforms and multiple payment methods.
Michael: Yep, yep. We were saying, “You can use Shopify here for your case. You can use Instagram and some links. You can use Stripe, PayPal, or Square, it’s not important.” And for me, for today, if we were thinking about today, and for any business, any kind of business, I would think about any kind of business, I would say, “In any case, you need to do your online, to have an online business.” What does it mean? It doesn’t mean you need …
Michael: For example, if I want to open a café or restaurant, I want to have it offline, but I would suggest, “Okay, but take Square POS system or Shopify POS system because everything you put through this POS will be online. And it will be much easier to reconcile and do all the audit, and for accountants and for your bookkeepers, it will be everything there. Nothing will be in cash. I mean, you can have something in cash, but minimise this, please. Just because it’s for you, for your business, the sooner you do it, the better for you, for your business.”
Heather: Yeah, absolutely. So for the accountants and bookkeepers listening in, and the potential e-commerce shopper and is listening in, who are at the start of their business, one of the things that do happen is, when you’re small, you think you can manage it. And whenever I go into a client, they’re small and they think they can manage it. And I’m like, “Well, what happens when you … You’ve got your inventory sorted out. What happens if you actually get featured in a magazine or on the TV, and tomorrow you have 5000 orders? Are you going to cope with that?”
Heather: That’s where a solution like this … I’m not trying to spruik it, but I just know that I’ve worked with clients like that, and their entire life is like Post-it notes all over their office. And I’m like, “As soon as we’ve got to an office that’s covered in Post-it notes, we might trip up.” And so, a solution like that, if we are going to increase our business accidentally overnight, then we need that sort of platform.
Heather: It’s interesting. One of the other things that I found the e-commerce businesses that I was dealing with would come up against is, they would be enticed to join these platforms, not your Etsy platforms, but your other platforms that were out there that I hadn’t necessarily heard of that were just not pushing any data back to them, which was a real problem. So I imagine that probably you couldn’t even attach to them.
Heather: And I was just like going, “Why are you attaching yourself to this platform that’s causing you so much friction?” Oh, look, is that physics? Did I get some physics in there? “It’s causing you so much friction and just make it sort of a frictionless experience.” And I’m like, “Maybe you’re better off pulling out. I’m not giving you advice on this, but that’s causing you a headache. That’s causing you a roadblock. Pull out and focus elsewhere with it. And by having multiple platforms, if one of them starts doing something unusual, you’re not trapped into there. You don’t have all your eggs in one basket.”
Michael: Yep, yep, sure. It’s like, one thing, I mean, Shopify or your own site, but it’s only one channel. But you still have Amazon and eBay and Etsy who have their own marketplaces with lots of clients. And as an e-commerce business, as any business, you want to spread your products through different channels. And yeah, this is a complexity coming in when they behave in a different way.
Michael: Honestly, sometimes I saw also clients who were on Amazon just because it’s like a must. They didn’t get any revenue on Amazon just because Amazon fees were too high for them, and their net for any sale was even in minus. They didn’t get anything for sales, but they were still on Amazon to be known, to be available for more clients, to sellers they can … the word of mouth will work. But they were targeting people from Amazon. They’re selling there, but most of the sales, they were targeting to their website, their own website. So yep, sometimes it’s a must for the business as well just to make better SEO, to make better … for more people to be heard from yourself.
Heather: I think my books, my Xero for Dummies book sell on Amazon. And what that gives me is, I think I’ve got like 100 five-star ratings on there. But I make like 49 cents per sale, so it’s nothing, like nothing. They can sell as much as they want. The thing is, it’s so efficient. So if someone’s asked me for a book, well, they can do it through me or they can do it through that. But it does give you the branding if you want it, and the knowledge, and the visibility.
Michael: Yep, yep.
How do you go about building feature requests into your solution?
Michael: You mean feature requests from our clients?
Michael: Yep. Yep. Okay. This is a great question just because … I would say, also, for the listeners of the podcast who are in app development, “Don’t do all the features from your clients, your clients’ requests. Don’t do it.” It’s a bad way because sometimes people asking not what they really need. They asking the result of something that happened, and it was like-
Heather: They ask for a faster horse rather than a car.
Michael: Yep, exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. We heard this so many times, but we have a support department. To be clear, to be honest, we have a support department. And with the support department, they gather all the ideas, in any case, independent to what is this area is about. And from all our clients, they talk every day with them, and we have a list of these ideas. And head of our support department, we have a meeting once in a week. She just gave us all the ideas from our clients.
Michael: I mean, it’s like, okay, and for this idea, we already had 10, 20, 40 requests. Okay, that means that this is something we have to do just because people need it. Our clients are requesting for this. Sometimes we’re saying directly to our clients, “Okay, we got it. We put it to our roadmap. We need some time to make it. You need to wait for a week, for a month. It depends on what …”
Michael: I mean, sometimes it’s small, sometimes it’s big. But sometimes we’ll just say, “Sorry, but you are just doing this wrong. You don’t need it. Let’s make it properly. Let’s don’t do it this way. Don’t use bank accounts in QuickBooks to categorise something or anything like this.” I mean, sometimes people use software and do strange things just because they can do this. They talk about, it’s correct, you can select something different.
Heather: So it’s about-
Michael: So, you are doing this.
Heather: … looking at them and trying to work out the best, the most effective outcome for everyone involved that will-
Michael: Yes. I mean, with all of our clients, it’s a very important point to solution providers. We both have a win-win. I mean, we are interested in your business to grow and our solution, and you are interested in solving your problem. And again, it’s not about us forcing, “Just don’t do this. You’re doing it wrong. You need to learn something.” No, it’s about, “Let’s understand what’s better for a business. Let’s avoid any additional tasks.”
Michael: Sometimes we have a feature request, like something big feature requests, or something that require a huge change, and then they’re asking … “Okay, okay, okay. If we will do it, what’s your paid amount? I mean, for example for e-commerce, how many orders with such a case do you have?”
Michael: “It’s about four in a month.”
Michael: “Four in a month? And you’re asking us for this?” It’s like, “Just four in a month? It’s not a big deal. Let’s separate it because you have … all of a sudden, you account for 1,000 in a week that don’t require this. Let’s find a way that we can solve it for your business.”
Michael: But that’s why we have also created rules, smart rules in Synder to say, “Okay, guys, here are the rules. You can create whatever rule you want. You can put with blocks and play with them as you like. If you have something, do it. If you want to put something, any text, any location, any classification based on your own rules, do it. And this will work for you, and it’s only for your business. It’s not for us.” Yep.
Heather: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that, Michael.
What technology tools do you like using either at work or personally? Just give us one or two that you like to use.
Michael: I like to use Slack. I like to use Zoom. Yep. For the Zoom, for me, it’s very interesting story for Zoom. Today, if you tell someone, “Let’s Zoom,” it’s like a verb. It’s an action. It’s not a product anymore. It’s an action. And this is awesome.
Heather: Awesome if you’re a Zoom shareholder.
Michael: Exactly. But from other side, we had Google, we had Apple, we had Microsoft, and we still have a small company, Zoom, who beat all of them in videoconferences. And this is for every application provider. Also, it’s a huge hope as well because it’s like when you want to compete with someone bigger than you, you need to understand that the someone who is bigger than you has lots of legacy.
Michael: And today, you can go faster. You can do it … less bureaucracy. You can create something new, specifically for your niche, for your clients, for the people that need it. And it’s much more complex for big vendors to do same movements just because they have lots of legacy. This is quite a good story for Zoom, for the whole world. So now we use it and call it as an action. So yeah.
Heather: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
What’s next for Synder or CloudBusiness?
Michael: We will continue what we started for e-commerces. We will do much more for e-commerces, and we will do much more with inventory, I would say because as our e-commerce client base is growing, we have more requests regarding inventory, how you can work with inventory, how you can track and manage inventory. And this is the area where, as software developers, as our team who know how to good software, can grow and evolve. And I think this will be the next pass for the business. And as well, on the other hand, we will create … This year is the year for us to go to accountants and bookkeepers and to work much more closely to them.
Michael: And I know we already created a directory in Synder for accountants who use Synder and can help clients because we have most of our clients today … I mean, not most, but it’s like 50-50. We have business owners, and they are looking for accountants, not only in the QuickBooks accountant or a Xero accountant, but it can be just accountant who can understand their pain, and mostly it’s e-commerce businesses.
Michael: And we want to create for people, for accountants’ and bookkeepers’ companies, who use Synder possibility to get more visibility as well. We don’t plan to make money for this because, again, it’s a win-win for us. It’s a programme that we can just give. And people can find them and can talk to them directly and help to do this whole reconciliation job. Yeah.
Heather: Yeah. Excellent, excellent. Well, that’s always helpful for accountants and bookkeepers because it does help them niche if they are continually working with that same solution.
Is there anything else you’d like to share with our listeners, Michael? And how can they get in touch with you?
Michael: Yep. I just want to thank you for having me. It was a great talk. I really enjoyed this. It’s nice to talk to you. To find me, the easiest way, it’s Twitter. It’s Michael Astreiko and same for LinkedIn. I have the same name everywhere, so Michael.Astreiko. Yep. So thank you for listening. And hopefully, you enjoyed as well.
Heather: Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us on the Cloud Stories podcast. We’ve really enjoyed having you on the show.
Michael: Thank you so much. Bye.